Topics

Hilltopper 40 Power Out at 12 VDC

StanWB2LQF
 

I'm about to purchase a Hilltopper 40 but first I would like to know how close to 5 watts output I can get from 12 VDC?  I built five QCX transceivers and not one of them ever approached 5 watts on 12 VDC and they also use three BS170 transistors.

In fairness to QCX Labs, they do indeed specify that the QCX transceivers operate on approx 6 to 16 volts and, of course, output varies directly with voltage.

Followup question:  For whatever power out 12 VDC provides for the Hilltopper 40 should I assume it will be EQUAL or LOWER for the Hilltopper 20?

Thanks in advance for some enlightenment; I'm a new group member.

72, Stan WB2LQF

AG1P Ron
 

There is a post on second page of the Messages titled Hilltopper 40 Performance. Several indicated just over 5W @ 12 volts. That was also my experience. Other members can add their experiences as well.

 

72 - Ron - AG1P

4SQRP Volunteer Moderator

 

From: HilltopperKit@4SQRP.groups.io [mailto:HilltopperKit@4SQRP.groups.io] On Behalf Of StanWB2LQF
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2019 3:49 PM
To: HilltopperKit@4SQRP.groups.io
Subject: [HilltopperKit] Hilltopper 40 Power Out at 12 VDC

 

I'm about to purchase a Hilltopper 40 but first I would like to know how close to 5 watts output I can get from 12 VDC?  I built five QCX transceivers and not one of them ever approached 5 watts on 12 VDC and they also use three BS170 transistors.

In fairness to QCX Labs, they do indeed specify that the QCX transceivers operate on approx 6 to 16 volts and, of course, output varies directly with voltage.

Followup question:  For whatever power out 12 VDC provides for the Hilltopper 40 should I assume it will be EQUAL or LOWER for the Hilltopper 20?

Thanks in advance for some enlightenment; I'm a new group member.

72, Stan WB2LQF

Charles W. Powell
 

Interesting that someone should ask.  I just put mine on a variable power supply and it didn’t seem to fall off from 5 watts until it hit 11.5v.  But going up didn’t change it much either.  I had just finished testing a QCX (20) and I wanted to see how they compared.  The QCX showed a definite change but the Hilltopper did not.

72,

Chas - NK8O

On Mar 7, 2019, at 7:58 PM, AG1P Ron <ag1p@...> wrote:

There is a post on second page of the Messages titled Hilltopper 40 Performance. Several indicated just over 5W @ 12 volts. That was also my experience. Other members can add their experiences as well.
 
72 - Ron - AG1P
4SQRP Volunteer Moderator
 
From: HilltopperKit@4SQRP.groups.io [mailto:HilltopperKit@4SQRP.groups.io] On Behalf Of StanWB2LQF
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2019 3:49 PM
To: HilltopperKit@4SQRP.groups.io
Subject: [HilltopperKit] Hilltopper 40 Power Out at 12 VDC
 

I'm about to purchase a Hilltopper 40 but first I would like to know how close to 5 watts output I can get from 12 VDC?  I built five QCX transceivers and not one of them ever approached 5 watts on 12 VDC and they also use three BS170 transistors.

In fairness to QCX Labs, they do indeed specify that the QCX transceivers operate on approx 6 to 16 volts and, of course, output varies directly with voltage.

Followup question:  For whatever power out 12 VDC provides for the Hilltopper 40 should I assume it will be EQUAL or LOWER for the Hilltopper 20?

Thanks in advance for some enlightenment; I'm a new group member.

72, Stan WB2LQF


Dave Benson
 

Stan-

Good question!  (and nice going on all the kit building)

There shouldn't be much difference in power output between the two bands. There's plenty of drive from the paralleled logic gates. As a result, the PA devices should be in saturation either way.  As an aside, I'd heard from someone who tried the scheme on 50 MHz. He got 4W out.

From what I've heard, the QCX may be more prone to low power output. I don't know if that's a common occurence, though.  The QCX is configured for class-E but the component values don't make sense to me.  In the case of the Hilltopper, I was concerned about peak voltages (4*Vcc) and tolerance stack-ups. As a result, the Hilltopper runs class-C and not class-E.

73- Dave, K1SWL


On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 8:45 PM StanWB2LQF <sjl219@...> wrote:

I'm about to purchase a Hilltopper 40 but first I would like to know how close to 5 watts output I can get from 12 VDC?  I built five QCX transceivers and not one of them ever approached 5 watts on 12 VDC and they also use three BS170 transistors.

In fairness to QCX Labs, they do indeed specify that the QCX transceivers operate on approx 6 to 16 volts and, of course, output varies directly with voltage.

Followup question:  For whatever power out 12 VDC provides for the Hilltopper 40 should I assume it will be EQUAL or LOWER for the Hilltopper 20?

Thanks in advance for some enlightenment; I'm a new group member.

72, Stan WB2LQF

Charles W. Powell
 

Question:  Can one tell from the waveform of the output of the BS170s what class amplifier is in operation?  If I understand correctly, Class E would show only a series of pulses, whereas class C would show a “round topped” upright square wave.

Any guru comments on this?

72,

Chas - NK8O

On Mar 8, 2019, at 4:25 AM, Dave Benson <davek1swl@...> wrote:

Stan-

Good question!  (and nice going on all the kit building)

There shouldn't be much difference in power output between the two bands. There's plenty of drive from the paralleled logic gates. As a result, the PA devices should be in saturation either way.  As an aside, I'd heard from someone who tried the scheme on 50 MHz. He got 4W out.

From what I've heard, the QCX may be more prone to low power output. I don't know if that's a common occurence, though.  The QCX is configured for class-E but the component values don't make sense to me.  In the case of the Hilltopper, I was concerned about peak voltages (4*Vcc) and tolerance stack-ups. As a result, the Hilltopper runs class-C and not class-E.

73- Dave, K1SWL

On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 8:45 PM StanWB2LQF <sjl219@...> wrote:

I'm about to purchase a Hilltopper 40 but first I would like to know how close to 5 watts output I can get from 12 VDC?  I built five QCX transceivers and not one of them ever approached 5 watts on 12 VDC and they also use three BS170 transistors.

In fairness to QCX Labs, they do indeed specify that the QCX transceivers operate on approx 6 to 16 volts and, of course, output varies directly with voltage.

Followup question:  For whatever power out 12 VDC provides for the Hilltopper 40 should I assume it will be EQUAL or LOWER for the Hilltopper 20?

Thanks in advance for some enlightenment; I'm a new group member.

72, Stan WB2LQF




prose062
 

I built a HT 40 in January for someone else.  I tested it at 4.8 watts on 12.0 volts, and 5.1 watts on 12.7 volts.  Output was clean, 2nd harmonic measured 46 dB down from carrier.  May vary a bit from build to build.

Paul - K0EET 

On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 6:45 PM StanWB2LQF <sjl219@...> wrote:

I'm about to purchase a Hilltopper 40 but first I would like to know how close to 5 watts output I can get from 12 VDC?  I built five QCX transceivers and not one of them ever approached 5 watts on 12 VDC and they also use three BS170 transistors.

In fairness to QCX Labs, they do indeed specify that the QCX transceivers operate on approx 6 to 16 volts and, of course, output varies directly with voltage.

Followup question:  For whatever power out 12 VDC provides for the Hilltopper 40 should I assume it will be EQUAL or LOWER for the Hilltopper 20?

Thanks in advance for some enlightenment; I'm a new group member.

72, Stan WB2LQF

WA0ITP
 

Correct!  Put your scope probe on the collector of the finals  If it is in Class E, You should see only positive rectangular pulses, such as the ones below.  The LPF filters out the harmonics making it sign wave. 

Dave has mentioned that the HT runs in Class C.  The second graph below show most classes and their conduction angles.  Class C is sinusoidal but is biased off for most of the cycle.  It can be very efficient too.




72 WAØITP
I love this radio stuff.
www.wa0itp.com
www.4sqrp.com
On 3/13/2019 6:32 PM, Charles W. Powell via Groups.Io wrote:

Question:  Can one tell from the waveform of the output of the BS170s what class amplifier is in operation?  If I understand correctly, Class E would show only a series of pulses, whereas class C would show a “round topped” upright square wave.

Any guru comments on this?

72,

Chas - NK8O

On Mar 8, 2019, at 4:25 AM, Dave Benson <davek1swl@...> wrote:

Stan-

Good question!  (and nice going on all the kit building)

There shouldn't be much difference in power output between the two bands. There's plenty of drive from the paralleled logic gates. As a result, the PA devices should be in saturation either way.  As an aside, I'd heard from someone who tried the scheme on 50 MHz. He got 4W out.

From what I've heard, the QCX may be more prone to low power output. I don't know if that's a common occurence, though.  The QCX is configured for class-E but the component values don't make sense to me.  In the case of the Hilltopper, I was concerned about peak voltages (4*Vcc) and tolerance stack-ups. As a result, the Hilltopper runs class-C and not class-E.

73- Dave, K1SWL

On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 8:45 PM StanWB2LQF <sjl219@...> wrote:

I'm about to purchase a Hilltopper 40 but first I would like to know how close to 5 watts output I can get from 12 VDC?  I built five QCX transceivers and not one of them ever approached 5 watts on 12 VDC and they also use three BS170 transistors.

In fairness to QCX Labs, they do indeed specify that the QCX transceivers operate on approx 6 to 16 volts and, of course, output varies directly with voltage.

Followup question:  For whatever power out 12 VDC provides for the Hilltopper 40 should I assume it will be EQUAL or LOWER for the Hilltopper 20?

Thanks in advance for some enlightenment; I'm a new group member.

72, Stan WB2LQF





Charles W. Powell
 

Oh good.  Some more fun with the scope!

72,

Chas - NK8O

On Mar 13, 2019, at 8:30 PM, WA0ITP <wa0itp@...> wrote:

Correct!  Put your scope probe on the collector of the finals  If it is in Class E, You should see only positive rectangular pulses, such as the ones below.  The LPF filters out the harmonics making it sign wave. 

Dave has mentioned that the HT runs in Class C.  The second graph below show most classes and their conduction angles.  Class C is sinusoidal but is biased off for most of the cycle.  It can be very efficient too.

<oamobnajgjncnmhh.dib>


<nobdbcoledmglenc.png>
72 WAØITP
I love this radio stuff.
www.wa0itp.com
www.4sqrp.com
On 3/13/2019 6:32 PM, Charles W. Powell via Groups.Io wrote:
Question:  Can one tell from the waveform of the output of the BS170s what class amplifier is in operation?  If I understand correctly, Class E would show only a series of pulses, whereas class C would show a “round topped” upright square wave.

Any guru comments on this?

72,

Chas - NK8O

On Mar 8, 2019, at 4:25 AM, Dave Benson <davek1swl@...> wrote:

Stan-

Good question!  (and nice going on all the kit building)

There shouldn't be much difference in power output between the two bands. There's plenty of drive from the paralleled logic gates. As a result, the PA devices should be in saturation either way.  As an aside, I'd heard from someone who tried the scheme on 50 MHz. He got 4W out.

From what I've heard, the QCX may be more prone to low power output. I don't know if that's a common occurence, though.  The QCX is configured for class-E but the component values don't make sense to me.  In the case of the Hilltopper, I was concerned about peak voltages (4*Vcc) and tolerance stack-ups. As a result, the Hilltopper runs class-C and not class-E.

73- Dave, K1SWL

On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 8:45 PM StanWB2LQF <sjl219@...> wrote:

I'm about to purchase a Hilltopper 40 but first I would like to know how close to 5 watts output I can get from 12 VDC?  I built five QCX transceivers and not one of them ever approached 5 watts on 12 VDC and they also use three BS170 transistors.

In fairness to QCX Labs, they do indeed specify that the QCX transceivers operate on approx 6 to 16 volts and, of course, output varies directly with voltage.

Followup question:  For whatever power out 12 VDC provides for the Hilltopper 40 should I assume it will be EQUAL or LOWER for the Hilltopper 20?

Thanks in advance for some enlightenment; I'm a new group member.

72, Stan WB2LQF






David Wilcox
 

OT I know.

Still looking for a Palm Pico Paddle.  Thought one of the listeners here might have one to sell.

Thank you.

Dave K8WPE. Djwilcox01 at gmail dot com

David J. Wilcox K8WPE’s iPad

On Mar 13, 2019, at 11:02 PM, Charles W. Powell via Groups.Io <doctorcwp@...> wrote:

Oh good.  Some more fun with the scope!

72,

Chas - NK8O

On Mar 13, 2019, at 8:30 PM, WA0ITP <wa0itp@...> wrote:

Correct!  Put your scope probe on the collector of the finals  If it is in Class E, You should see only positive rectangular pulses, such as the ones below.  The LPF filters out the harmonics making it sign wave. 

Dave has mentioned that the HT runs in Class C.  The second graph below show most classes and their conduction angles.  Class C is sinusoidal but is biased off for most of the cycle.  It can be very efficient too.

<oamobnajgjncnmhh.dib>


<nobdbcoledmglenc.png>
72 WAØITP
I love this radio stuff.
www.wa0itp.com
www.4sqrp.com
On 3/13/2019 6:32 PM, Charles W. Powell via Groups.Io wrote:
Question:  Can one tell from the waveform of the output of the BS170s what class amplifier is in operation?  If I understand correctly, Class E would show only a series of pulses, whereas class C would show a “round topped” upright square wave.

Any guru comments on this?

72,

Chas - NK8O

On Mar 8, 2019, at 4:25 AM, Dave Benson <davek1swl@...> wrote:

Stan-

Good question!  (and nice going on all the kit building)

There shouldn't be much difference in power output between the two bands. There's plenty of drive from the paralleled logic gates. As a result, the PA devices should be in saturation either way.  As an aside, I'd heard from someone who tried the scheme on 50 MHz. He got 4W out.

From what I've heard, the QCX may be more prone to low power output. I don't know if that's a common occurence, though.  The QCX is configured for class-E but the component values don't make sense to me.  In the case of the Hilltopper, I was concerned about peak voltages (4*Vcc) and tolerance stack-ups. As a result, the Hilltopper runs class-C and not class-E.

73- Dave, K1SWL

On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 8:45 PM StanWB2LQF <sjl219@...> wrote:

I'm about to purchase a Hilltopper 40 but first I would like to know how close to 5 watts output I can get from 12 VDC?  I built five QCX transceivers and not one of them ever approached 5 watts on 12 VDC and they also use three BS170 transistors.

In fairness to QCX Labs, they do indeed specify that the QCX transceivers operate on approx 6 to 16 volts and, of course, output varies directly with voltage.

Followup question:  For whatever power out 12 VDC provides for the Hilltopper 40 should I assume it will be EQUAL or LOWER for the Hilltopper 20?

Thanks in advance for some enlightenment; I'm a new group member.

72, Stan WB2LQF






Dave Benson
 

re class-C vs class E

There's another straightforward way to tell...by looking at the schematic.

The components on a class-E amplifier's collector/drain circuit should be resonant at the operating frequency. This primarily includes the collector/drain's RF choke and a capacitor to ground. (The PA device's output capacitance also needs to be factored in. )

If there's a capacitor to ground on the PA drain/collector, chances are good it's designed for class-E.

73-Dave


On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 6:18 AM David Wilcox via Groups.Io <Djwilcox01=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
OT I know.

Still looking for a Palm Pico Paddle.  Thought one of the listeners here might have one to sell.

Thank you.

Dave K8WPE. Djwilcox01 at gmail dot com

David J. Wilcox K8WPE’s iPad

On Mar 13, 2019, at 11:02 PM, Charles W. Powell via Groups.Io <doctorcwp@...> wrote:

Oh good.  Some more fun with the scope!

72,

Chas - NK8O

On Mar 13, 2019, at 8:30 PM, WA0ITP <wa0itp@...> wrote:

Correct!  Put your scope probe on the collector of the finals  If it is in Class E, You should see only positive rectangular pulses, such as the ones below.  The LPF filters out the harmonics making it sign wave. 

Dave has mentioned that the HT runs in Class C.  The second graph below show most classes and their conduction angles.  Class C is sinusoidal but is biased off for most of the cycle.  It can be very efficient too.

<oamobnajgjncnmhh.dib>


<nobdbcoledmglenc.png>
72 WAØITP
I love this radio stuff.
www.wa0itp.com
www.4sqrp.com
On 3/13/2019 6:32 PM, Charles W. Powell via Groups.Io wrote:
Question:  Can one tell from the waveform of the output of the BS170s what class amplifier is in operation?  If I understand correctly, Class E would show only a series of pulses, whereas class C would show a “round topped” upright square wave.

Any guru comments on this?

72,

Chas - NK8O

On Mar 8, 2019, at 4:25 AM, Dave Benson <davek1swl@...> wrote:

Stan-

Good question!  (and nice going on all the kit building)

There shouldn't be much difference in power output between the two bands. There's plenty of drive from the paralleled logic gates. As a result, the PA devices should be in saturation either way.  As an aside, I'd heard from someone who tried the scheme on 50 MHz. He got 4W out.

From what I've heard, the QCX may be more prone to low power output. I don't know if that's a common occurence, though.  The QCX is configured for class-E but the component values don't make sense to me.  In the case of the Hilltopper, I was concerned about peak voltages (4*Vcc) and tolerance stack-ups. As a result, the Hilltopper runs class-C and not class-E.

73- Dave, K1SWL

On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 8:45 PM StanWB2LQF <sjl219@...> wrote:

I'm about to purchase a Hilltopper 40 but first I would like to know how close to 5 watts output I can get from 12 VDC?  I built five QCX transceivers and not one of them ever approached 5 watts on 12 VDC and they also use three BS170 transistors.

In fairness to QCX Labs, they do indeed specify that the QCX transceivers operate on approx 6 to 16 volts and, of course, output varies directly with voltage.

Followup question:  For whatever power out 12 VDC provides for the Hilltopper 40 should I assume it will be EQUAL or LOWER for the Hilltopper 20?

Thanks in advance for some enlightenment; I'm a new group member.

72, Stan WB2LQF






KB9BVN -
 

This is a fun and very learned group..I learn more every day I am here. 

de KB9BVN


On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 9:17 AM Dave Benson <davek1swl@...> wrote:
re class-C vs class E

There's another straightforward way to tell...by looking at the schematic.

The components on a class-E amplifier's collector/drain circuit should be resonant at the operating frequency. This primarily includes the collector/drain's RF choke and a capacitor to ground. (The PA device's output capacitance also needs to be factored in. )

If there's a capacitor to ground on the PA drain/collector, chances are good it's designed for class-E.

73-Dave

On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 6:18 AM David Wilcox via Groups.Io <Djwilcox01=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
OT I know.

Still looking for a Palm Pico Paddle.  Thought one of the listeners here might have one to sell.

Thank you.

Dave K8WPE. Djwilcox01 at gmail dot com

David J. Wilcox K8WPE’s iPad

On Mar 13, 2019, at 11:02 PM, Charles W. Powell via Groups.Io <doctorcwp@...> wrote:

Oh good.  Some more fun with the scope!

72,

Chas - NK8O

On Mar 13, 2019, at 8:30 PM, WA0ITP <wa0itp@...> wrote:

Correct!  Put your scope probe on the collector of the finals  If it is in Class E, You should see only positive rectangular pulses, such as the ones below.  The LPF filters out the harmonics making it sign wave. 

Dave has mentioned that the HT runs in Class C.  The second graph below show most classes and their conduction angles.  Class C is sinusoidal but is biased off for most of the cycle.  It can be very efficient too.

<oamobnajgjncnmhh.dib>


<nobdbcoledmglenc.png>
72 WAØITP
I love this radio stuff.
www.wa0itp.com
www.4sqrp.com
On 3/13/2019 6:32 PM, Charles W. Powell via Groups.Io wrote:
Question:  Can one tell from the waveform of the output of the BS170s what class amplifier is in operation?  If I understand correctly, Class E would show only a series of pulses, whereas class C would show a “round topped” upright square wave.

Any guru comments on this?

72,

Chas - NK8O

On Mar 8, 2019, at 4:25 AM, Dave Benson <davek1swl@...> wrote:

Stan-

Good question!  (and nice going on all the kit building)

There shouldn't be much difference in power output between the two bands. There's plenty of drive from the paralleled logic gates. As a result, the PA devices should be in saturation either way.  As an aside, I'd heard from someone who tried the scheme on 50 MHz. He got 4W out.

From what I've heard, the QCX may be more prone to low power output. I don't know if that's a common occurence, though.  The QCX is configured for class-E but the component values don't make sense to me.  In the case of the Hilltopper, I was concerned about peak voltages (4*Vcc) and tolerance stack-ups. As a result, the Hilltopper runs class-C and not class-E.

73- Dave, K1SWL

On Thu, Mar 7, 2019 at 8:45 PM StanWB2LQF <sjl219@...> wrote:

I'm about to purchase a Hilltopper 40 but first I would like to know how close to 5 watts output I can get from 12 VDC?  I built five QCX transceivers and not one of them ever approached 5 watts on 12 VDC and they also use three BS170 transistors.

In fairness to QCX Labs, they do indeed specify that the QCX transceivers operate on approx 6 to 16 volts and, of course, output varies directly with voltage.

Followup question:  For whatever power out 12 VDC provides for the Hilltopper 40 should I assume it will be EQUAL or LOWER for the Hilltopper 20?

Thanks in advance for some enlightenment; I'm a new group member.

72, Stan WB2LQF








--
73 de KB9BVN
Brian Murrey